Gem Kennedy (they/them) (00:02)

Okay, we're live. Hello. We've just had some like tech, last minute tech things, haven't we? But yeah, hopefully it's all sorted now and everyone can hear us. So I'm gonna introduce you and then like, I feel like we're gonna have lots of things to talk about. So I'll do that. So this is H. H. Arlo Harris is a coach who helps people to recognize the power of owning their identity.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (00:04)

Woo!

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (00:29)

H uses their own experiences as an Autistic, trans, mask, non-binary black person to share how stepping into your identity skyrockets your business and personal life. And we have known each other for a little while now and ⁓ yeah, like you're awesome. That's what I would add to your bio. So is there anything that you would like to add?

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (00:41)

Yeah. Thank you.

I feel like people do their buyers and they're like really slick and I'm just like, ha ha ha, and not me. ⁓ For me, it's just all about living your truth, living an unapologetic version of yourself ⁓ and understanding that and being able to use who you are to be your biggest advantage. ⁓ And it sounds really simple, ⁓ but it's actually not.

And I think so many people now, like I am unapologetically myself and you sort of poke it and it falls apart, especially, you know, in and around our neurodivergent siblings. You know, so many of us are on this journey of unlearning and unmasking. And unfortunately, sorry to be the bearer of bad news, I don't think we ever get off. I think it's always something that we have to...

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (01:23)

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (01:44)

evaluate, reassess, come back to and check in with ourselves around because we change. Like as human beings, we are always exposed to different viewpoints, different perspectives. And I think there's something in the application ⁓ of our identity. ⁓ And that's where I help people.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (02:12)

Yeah. Yeah. And I think like, yeah, I love what you said there around ⁓ that idea, because authenticity has become such a buzzword. And it's so annoying because like, it's the fact that it's become a buzzword is like the antithesis of what it's supposed to mean. And it's supposed to be like, yes, it just, yeah. And I find that really frustrating. And I think especially like when we're thinking about, ⁓ you know,

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (02:12)

That's me.

Yeah.

For real.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (02:38)

of the reasons that we're here today is to talk about the experience of being trans plus and Autistic and how that connects with authenticity. Obviously, that's much harder than to kind be ourselves ⁓ when we sit on multiple intersections. ⁓ Yeah. And I guess that's what I always find interesting when we have conversations in that our work is very similar, like we're helping people to do very similar things. ⁓

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (02:43)

Yeah.

Sure

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (03:06)

and that neither of us are into that authenticity as a, yeah, just be yourself. We also realize it's not that easy and there's a lot of unlearning and relearning and stuff that has to happen.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (03:13)

Yeah.

100%. Yeah, think it's, I think it's like there is an element in everything that we do where, you know, you have to act like you are it to become it. But there's a difference in saying that you're acting like you are it and actually acting like you are it. I think there's a lot of saying that I'm acting like I am it and not the latter because the...

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (03:22)

Yeah.

And...

Mm-hmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (03:48)

the former that I can't remember which one I just said, the acting like you're acting. Because that one's harder. That one's really hard. And you often don't say anything when you're doing that thing. Because you're probably quite exhausted from doing the thing. Yeah, it's a... I'm a big believer of like, I don't even call it fake it till you make it because like...

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (03:51)

You

Mm-hmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (04:15)

You do it until doing it isn't doing it anymore. ⁓

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (04:19)

Yeah, yeah. You know what?

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (04:23)

Come on, sorry.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (04:24)

sorry, go on. I just had a thought and then I was like, ah, did you want to finish? Okay. And my thought was, okay, okay, I think we also have a delay. So this is like really tricky. And yeah, I was gonna say that it makes me think of the gym, right? So that idea of like, and thinking about reps, okay, this is like boring gym talk for anyone who isn't interested in the gym. But the reason I'm sharing it, yeah, exactly. It's because both H and I are into lifting. And but

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (04:27)

Nah, think you thought, think you thought, let's have it. I think I finished.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (04:54)

Yeah, you like, say, for example, you add on two and a half kilos, you can't do it for like six reps, you can maybe do it for one. And then you like do that one. And then you next time do two, and the next time you do three, and then like the next time you come back, you can increase it. So it's that kind of like, you gradually grow in confidence and strength at that particular level. And then you can kind of carry on and do something else, you know, heavier afterwards.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (05:17)

100%,

like something that I always like, for me and my own personal journey, is conflict. So, know, growing up, I thought there was one method of conflict, I think like a lot of people do, which is like argument or physical fighting. They're the pretty much like, we always presume that that is conflict. And actually, what I recognized as an adult was there's so many different ways that conflict arises. And I'm talking about like,

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (05:31)

Mmm.

Yeah.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (05:46)

like from what people perceive as micro conflicts right up to, you know, other conflict. And I remember like, recognizing that I needed to navigate conflict better. basically navigating conflict had to stop being shouting matches. And I remember some of the first times doing that, I'd be like, this is so strange. I don't know what I'm doing.

Like I feel really uncomfortable, I feel really exposed, because instead of just like screaming and shouting, I'm like talking about how I actually felt and how different people's perspectives. I had to think a lot more and it really, I really resonate with that example of like putting that weight on, because now I do that and it's effortless. Like there is no discomfort, very, very, very rarely is there any discomfort in that for me.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (06:12)

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (06:39)

You know, I'm kind of like, I know what I'm doing now. I know how to navigate this. And it was more about the recognition and regulation of my own emotions as opposed to like actually having, and actually saying the thing that you want to say. ⁓ I think a lot of conflict is really difficult because we don't actually say the things you want to say. Like what we're actually saying is I'm really sad and that thing happened and I don't want it to happen again. So can we sort it out? But what we often say is like, get away from me.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (06:43)

Yeah.

Yeah.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (07:08)

you know, or, you know, something to that effect. So, yeah.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (07:09)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah. And also the fact that as particularly neurodivergent people, also like, if we sit at other intersections, for example, like, obviously, you will, like, know this better than me for sure. But thinking about being a black person in, like, the UK, saying what you think isn't safe necessarily. And so there's that kind of like, it's not just that we can't say what we think, because we can't connect to it also may not be safe, because we'll be seen like, for example, the ⁓

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (07:31)

Nah.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (07:43)

thinking about if we're neurodivergent, our big emotions may be misunderstood as like aggression or being threatening or whatever. there's, right, yeah, like God forbid.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (07:49)

or as big emotions, like, yeah, or big emotions, our big, yeah,

our big emotions, or our emotions are perceived as big emotions, and even that is perceived as negative. ⁓ But yeah, very good point. I think there's an element of whenever I talk about unmasking, and I think, you know, although neither of us necessarily use that word particularly a lot, I think...

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (07:57)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (08:18)

That is in an essence, it's how some may describe some of the things that we support people with. And I always say that, know, you have to, aspirations are important, but you have to almost make that safety plan. And sometimes we perceive that safety to be external from us. Like, where are we going to physically talk? And who are we going to have around us?

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (08:36)

Mm-hmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (08:47)

And but also from an internal sense of safety, like, have I got the capacity for me to go and talk about this? as you all know, as an advocate, like you have to maintain that because I remember around the time of the Supreme Court ruling, I didn't post very much organic content that I created. I didn't have the space for it. Like I didn't, couldn't physically consume it.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (09:14)

and

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (09:17)

and speak in a way that was like, need to respond to it. And ultimately that is protecting your own safety as well. ⁓ Because like, you only know you and nobody else can really come in and read that well enough. So if you don't feel mentally safe or emotionally safe, safe with yourself to be doing stuff, that's also an option to be like, it's not today. And it doesn't...

you know, it's not a failure and it's not a backwards progress. If anything, it's progress because it's inter reception. It's acknowledging self. And what is more authentic than knowledge itself?

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (09:45)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I was just talking about this, or similar kind of thing with Arlo in the previous call, ⁓ where we were chatting about kind of having boundaries around like what you will and won't speak about, and that that is fine and obviously really important because, ⁓ so they talk about it as Jerry, you know, random guy on the internet who's going to kick off about something that if you put things out there, how

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (10:16)

Yeah.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (10:29)

know, that can be really, it can take a huge amount of energy and feel like very overwhelming. And some people are obviously more able to handle that than others, but depending on what we're sharing, and yeah, it can just be really tough. And I think as nerd, sorry, go ahead.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (10:39)

For sure. For sure.

I was disagreeing with you, sorry.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (10:45)

⁓ yeah, and as neurodivergent people, especially like we've become often very good at people pleasing, prioritizing other people's needs and like perceptions of us above our own experiences. So there's all of these layers aren't there of like, why it can be difficult. And really, I guess what we're saying is it can be difficult to be bold. Like, that's the point of this conversation, right? Like, it's really hard to be bold when, yeah.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (10:56)

Hmm.

for sure.

Sure, and...

Yeah, and those boundaries flex as well. this is like, like boundaries are not, ⁓ boundaries aren't brick walls. Like they aren't permanent. Your boundary today could be a brick wall and tomorrow that wall isn't there. You know, it's not a matter of like these, they don't have to be your boundaries all the time. They can be, but actually some days.

you might be like, absolutely, I always say, like you messaged me like, where are you at? And I was like, open book, open book, like 99.9 % of the time, open book. But some days I'm not, and I don't want to talk about anything or anybody. And that's all right. Because those boundaries, because we're human and we have our responses to things and they absolutely should be able to shift and flex. And I think especially for neurodivergent people, they often experience these shifts.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (11:45)

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (12:07)

based upon their regulation, based upon who they are and how they operate. And they feel like they have to justify that to people. you don't, like you do not have to justify that to anybody because anybody that genuinely cares about who you are and how you are will just be like, yeah, cool, no worries. It won't be a problem because no one's entitled to your time, your effort, your energy or your information. Like you're not, you've not been put on the planet.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (12:28)

Mm-hmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (12:35)

to necessarily do that. But when you feel like you can do and you're able to, and you are able to be bold, then you can. But you don't have to be 100 % bold 100 % of the time. And it doesn't make your boldness any less valuable.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (12:50)

Yeah, love that. Yeah, it makes me think of sort of like, I don't know why, but like being in a really cozy place and then like being able to pop your head out and like do some bold things and then like go back to your cozy place. And maybe you spend more time like out of that, but there's definitely that kind of place, whether that's like you said, an internal sort of felt sense of safety or like community or ⁓ yeah, that kind of safety to return to hopefully for everyone. ⁓ And that makes me think of my first...

question that I sent you, which was around like, how are you doing right now? And what, if anything, is kind of keeping you going in these, like these especially tough times, I guess.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (13:31)

Yeah, I'm feeling good ⁓ to be honest and I think on the surface ⁓ it might seem always good. ⁓ I think in the face, Adversity does a really strange thing to me. a really, you know, I say strange in a jovial way and I have a really strange response to adversity. makes me like, it makes It kicks me on. ⁓

Like, literally, like, if you try to put me in a box, if you try and oppress me, I'm just gonna come out, like, twice as hard because there's no, there's nothing you can do to me that is any scarier or dangerous than me muting myself and putting myself in a box, in a closet, Like, there is nothing more dangerous than that. So you can't do anything to me.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (13:59)

Mm-hmm.

and

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (14:28)

that you can't touch me in that sense because that is a form of death. Because I would be dead if I lived like that. I'm gonna go out swinging then. So that's me. I think though, it does make you think, I think there are a lot more internal thoughts. It makes me think a little bit more about... ⁓

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (14:39)

Hmm.

Yeah.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (14:57)

Not other people's perceptions per se, but just like that safety planning, think is much more active ⁓ at the moment. think there are things that I had become a little bit more ⁓ automatic that I might think more about now ⁓ in terms of like going to places and meeting new people and introducing yourself.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (15:05)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (15:26)

and introducing new pronouns and watching how that lands because for so many people, think there is a probably quite a large group, if I'm honest, that are, what I use is politically vulnerable. So they don't really have a strong opinion, but they're quite vulnerable to propaganda and misinformation. And ordinarily, prior to what we've experienced in the last sort of two months would have just

got on board with whatever was the status quo and whatever was going on board, they've now been subject to more of these fear-mongering conversations and therefore have potentially developed views or opinions that aren't really based on much. We've always had the hate. Those groups haven't moved. They've always been there. know how to work that space.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (16:18)

Yeah.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (16:23)

You know, so, so I'm not saying that it's acceptable and it's fun, but we, know that it exists. We've not like woken up one day and being like, my God, there's a huge group of people that hate us. Like we already fucking knew that. ⁓ but it's that those everyday ordinary people who prior were just quite neutral and just like, well, if it doesn't affect me and you know, then whatever, let people be people and, didn't have a fear about it. But I think that is probably.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (16:30)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (16:52)

It's a heightened level of awareness of people, which therefore heightens our awareness, my awareness of how people interact with me, or may interact with me. And it's again, it's that just like, okay, I think for me, it's just being like, having to put that armor on, I always talk about there's a coat of armor that we have, especially when we go into places that...

aren't necessarily safe. And I don't believe we can operate in places that are 100 % safe 100 % of the time. You just can't. ⁓ Some places are safer than others. We like to spend more time in safe places than less safe spaces. But less safe doesn't necessarily always equal dangerous, I think is a good point to make. But I think in those sort of less safe spaces, having to just prep that armor a little bit more.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (17:28)

Yeah, for sure.

Mm-hmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (17:51)

⁓ whether or not it's it's required and i would like transparently say that like 99 percent of the time like it hasn't been ⁓ but i i would also say to flip that on its head as a person of color i already experienced that that's not unusual for me to go to certain places and places ⁓ and have to be prepared for

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (17:56)

Yeah.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (18:21)

You know, I've always, I've always known that there's a possibility. Well, again, not even possibility. I have always known that there is, there are people who, who dislike, who hate, who would, who would do me physical harm based upon the color of my skin. ⁓ so that risk, active risk assessment is something that I've got skin in the game on because, you know, not that anybody can hide.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (18:21)

Mm-hmm.

Bye.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (18:51)

any aspect of them, I don't believe that, but you'll spot mine a mile off. ⁓ So that active risk assessment was already a skill I had in place ⁓ prior to understanding my neurodivergence, prior to understanding my queerness, ⁓ understanding that was trans. I've always had that. However, I wasn't brought up with that knowledge. wasn't something, you know, I speak to a lot of people of colour who...

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (18:56)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (19:20)

whose parents had tried to support them to understand that narrative of subconscious bias. I didn't, I learnt it. I was just told that very basic, like, you're going to have to work harder than everybody else. There are certain people that aren't going to like you because of the colour of your skin. Everything else I had to find out by myself. ⁓ I think there's a misconception that we're all in this classroom and it's like, right, remember this. And it isn't. ⁓

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (19:37)

Wow, okay.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (19:50)

You

know, people will say, how do you know? And we have this, you know, when you're Autistic, when you're queer and it's like, well, how do you know? People might not really be thinking that, like, you don't want to make assumptions. It's kind of like, you know, and I would say to people when I reverse this, I'm like, if you're at work or if you're in your social situation, a family situation, nothing's been said, but you do know the people in the room that don't like you. You don't know why, but you do know.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (20:15)

Mmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yep.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (20:19)

And if you have a

protected characteristic of a neutralised and underrepresented gender or group, you'll know as well.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (20:26)

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? Because it could be like, some people may say like, it's an intuition that some people have just to like, feel, you know, more connected to other people. Other people would say like, it's trauma based because like, you've literally had to navigate the world, like, you know, being hyper vigilant to figure out, you know, where am I safe? Like, where might things kick off? And, and so I guess, yeah, I'm just, I'm sort of thinking how

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (20:40)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (20:56)

with the work that you do and the rooms that you show up in, for example, when we're thinking about speaking in the places that you show up, like how are you taking care of yourself? Is there like a particular idea that helps like a person, a theory, ⁓ a thing, I'm guessing maybe your dog because your dog seems cool. Yeah, anything else that is sort of helping you get by right now.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (20:59)

Yeah. Yeah.

.

Yeah.

I think, ironically...

In contrast to probably what I've just said, I presume safety, which again, I understand is a weird concept, but you can presume safety with armor on. So like, I know that I will navigate situations. I know that 99 % of people don't want to see other people get harmed.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (21:32)

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (21:56)

and or hurt or upset. And I know that I've got people, whether they're physically there in that moment or whether they're not there in that moment, that will back me 100 % and will allow me to feel safe even if in a moment I didn't feel safe. Because I think for me, I'm absolutely safe being myself. Like I am my safety.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (22:17)

Mm-hmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (22:25)

⁓ And yes, there's big things we have to dynamically risk assess. ⁓ And I get to choose what comes in and out, you know, like a bit like I was going to say a dam, but I think it's more than that. I'm going to go real scientific now, like osmosis. Like it's like a barrier. It's like a cell membrane. Like I get to decide what comes in and out.

Because I am absolutely comfortable being in a room with somebody who is like looking at me and can't work it out, can't work it out. You know, those like, like they're really, that's fine, that's not about me. That's a, and that's not necessarily hateful. It's somebody trying to work something out in their mind. And until that comes in, until that actively enters my space, I don't need to deal with it.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (22:58)

Mm-hmm. ⁓

Mm-hmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (23:17)

I need to let that person do whatever it is they need to do. Just because somebody, I feel that thing doesn't mean I need to respond to it. Because I get to control my emotional response to that thing. If it's uncomfortable, it doesn't necessarily mean dangerous. So, ⁓ there's that. And other times I just walk around with the blinkers on. I just do my own thing. I don't look externally. just...

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (23:21)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (23:46)

I stay in my space, I do my thing, I vibe with my people. I don't need to worry about that until it actively sees us. Do know what mean?

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (23:57)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that feeling of self trust as well that like, no matter what happens, you trust that you can deal with it in the moment, or that you can like have people around you that you can call upon to, you know, process whatever's happened or ⁓ feel supported. That's so I think for a lot of us, that's kind of like half more than half the battle, isn't it? Just having that sense of like, whatever happens, I will figure it out, even if the worst thing happens.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (24:21)

Yeah.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (24:27)

like yeah ⁓ yeah

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (24:31)

As trans plus Autistic people, if you have got to this point in your life, you have survived so much. Like you have navigated so many things and you are here to tell the tale. So don't, although that would have been difficult, like don't devalue the skills that you have had to learn.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (24:41)

Mm-hmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (24:58)

to still be here.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (24:58)

Yeah.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (25:01)

because they have absolute weight and they will, you know, as providing that they are not detrimental to you in terms of, you know, any other aspect, physically, emotionally, mentally, you know, you survived with that still. We, I remember having a term a few years ago, ⁓ chaos ninja, and it was used by a person who would,

experienced war with a refugee, chaos when they arrived ⁓ in this country and they were like, you give me chaos, I'll deal with it. Because it was all they'd ever known. And so many people wanted them to put that to one side and be like, know, we've had all these bad things happen to you. And so it had to go in the bad box never to be seen again.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (25:49)

Yeah.

Mmm,

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (25:58)

And actually, there

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (25:59)

mm-hmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (25:59)

were so many things in there that they use to do what they do now.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (26:05)

Yeah.

Yeah, so much learning and like, yeah, so many skills. You can imagine. Yeah. And well, I guess I'm really like finding it hard not to get sidetracked and just like have a general chat with you about all of these things because they're so interesting. ⁓ thinking of this, like, you know, everything you've said so far, just this real boldness, like really shows through. And so I would imagine there are

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (26:25)

Hahaha.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (26:36)

a whole bunch of bold decisions that you've made in your life. But I wondered if you'd kind of like picked one or a few and what those choices were and how they have shaped you.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (26:39)

Yeah.

Gosh, I think you have to make bold choices every day, don't you? Like, every day. Like, I'd like, like, as a person who speaks and tries to motivate, you know, inspire and empower people, I feel like I should say something really powerful and inspiring, but, like, it's every day. Every single day is a bold decision. Every decision that you make will be a bold decision. And I think the day that I made...

the decision to make decisions for myself, not anybody else, was probably the boldest day. And that doesn't mean that I just disregard anybody that's in my life. I think what I recognized was when I made decisions that weren't for me, at the root weren't for me, it kicked a ball down the field where something then arose.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (27:22)

I

Yeah, yeah.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (27:48)

The whole situation didn't really work because I didn't do it from a place of authenticity. I didn't do it from a place that was shooting myself. It was literally like planting a rotten, this is a terrible example, like planting a rotten apple and expecting like the best apple tree to grow. Like it was never gonna, it was never gonna work. And like as a recovering people pleaser, I think that that is,

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (28:06)

You

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (28:18)

That was the boldest decision that I made was to ask myself that question, that who's that for question and continue to make those decisions based upon that. ⁓ And I think I had to take off those lenses, because we're told all the time, aren't we? Like, don't be selfish, you know, look after each other. It's impressed upon us. And I think definitely as Autistic, we really take that in. And actually other people don't do that. ⁓ We like...

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (28:24)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I love, yeah.

Hmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (28:47)

we make that decision, we take that and we really run with it at the detriment of ourselves. And I think that decision coupled with say yes, say yes more was probably the boldest choice that I had to make. And I would say like, even now, like my boldest choices are about failing and making a decision.

even if it might be perceived by others, but the decision that I've made has been for a different reason. ⁓ Because people will inference. ⁓ One of my biggest triggers was, and probably still I don't think you ever get rid of your biggest trigger. I think you stay it and you become aware of it and therefore you manage it. Is when people misunderstood my intention.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (29:24)

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (29:43)

But I can't affect that. I can't affect that. I know my intention. And whenever people come to me and they say like, H, you know, I want to be able to, to, you know, speak to my trans siblings more or my, you know, I want to be a better ally. want to, I want to do this. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know what I'm doing. And everything I always say to them is like, set your intention, know what your intention is. Keep your ears open. Be open to feedback.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (29:46)

Yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (30:12)

Because if your intention is pure, the outcome will be right. If your intention, and you will know this as well as I do, because I see it and you see it, when people go, I should say this thing, and then they fuck it up, and then someone in the community is like, hey, did you know that that's not quite right? And then they fucking lose their shit. That's because their intention isn't altruistic.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (30:30)

You

Yeah.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (30:42)

Their intention came from, should say this thing because I meant to. Whereas those who genuinely are saying the things for the right reasons and because their intention is true, they will get there in the end.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (30:47)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah. Sorry, go ahead.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (30:58)

So.

No, it's okay.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (31:05)

think we've got a delay. I'm not meaning to interrupt you. ⁓ Yeah, I think like hearing you say that just and that thing around failing as well, like needing to be prepared or be willing to fail in order to make progress. Because if someone says, you know, all that thing you did like wasn't so great or that thing, you know, you could have done it this way, not in terms of like, ⁓ I'm talking about if someone shares an opinion or like says something, if someone comes and says, you know, like, that wasn't ideal, maybe you want to think about that.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (31:08)

No, it's okay.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (31:35)

Having that space to be like, yeah, thank you, that's really helpful because it takes energy for people to share that and raise that with you, especially when conflict is not really well supported in our society or well taught or modeled. ⁓ Yeah, so having that, yeah.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (31:52)

Yeah, we're modelled on gratitude,

aren't we? We're modelled on gratitude. It's like, well, they should be grateful that I am here or that I offered them this opportunity. Like, transparently, when the Supreme Court ruling happened, I was approached by quite a few people ⁓ in terms of looking for ⁓ POC experiences of what was going on. And some

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (31:59)

Mmhmm. Mmhmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (32:20)

And like I say, I lead with intention, like practice the pause, the intention is good. That's what I always presume, always, everyone's intention is good. ⁓ So, you know, for me, I can look beyond sometimes some of those faux pas that people make, but I will also just be like, hey, just so you know, when you approach people and you say this thing, it can be construed as that, just so you know when you move forward, like,

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (32:37)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (32:49)

that this is a thing. So, you know, and all the people that I spoke to, if I did, like, they were great and they've really, like, they've taken that in, but I think that's when you know who's in it for the right reasons.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (33:06)

Yeah,

definitely. And we've really seen that with like, you know, obviously with what's been going on in the US and the UK and other places too, where like, DEI has fallen away, and now is like not popular to promote or, you know, it's seen as like, not good to be progressive somehow. That all of that stuff, like, I can't remember who there's ⁓ a, I'm so bad at remembering people's like Instagram names, but there's someone who is a lesbian parent.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (33:15)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (33:35)

And she had written that like really recently that she'd received like no inquiries for Pride Month, whereas in previous years she would have got quite a few. ⁓ And that's just one of the many signs she was sharing that like kind of indicate, you know, the rollback in interest in this kind of stuff. So yeah, it's just a really difficult time.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (33:51)

Yeah, because the interest was never

intentional. It was never an intentional interest. were you going to do it anyway? Like, did you do it from the right place or did you do it because you felt like you should do it? And what is done in the dark will come into the light. And that's what you're seeing. Those that never had the integrity and didn't really push for it anyway haven't. And, you know, there are arguments that people will say that...

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (33:57)

Exactly.

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (34:19)

If they don't follow X, Y and Z policy, they will lose, you know, and in the US, you know, prevalently say if people are in government contracts and they're having to weigh up between making X, hundreds amount of people redundant or jobless versus whatever really difficult decision. In the UK, we aren't making those decisions. So that's a real bullshit call. Like, and only if you like are dealing that...

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (34:31)

Yeah.

No. Yeah.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (34:48)

in America's case, unless you are dealing directly with like those kinds of contracts, it's like bigots be bigotting, do you know what mean?

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (34:55)

you

Yeah,

it just gives people an excuse, doesn't it? It's like, it emboldens people a bit like the same with, you know, the Supreme Court ruling. It was very explicit, like, this is not, you know, when they released it, they said, this is not a victory for people who don't like trans people. But that it doesn't matter because like, all it does is embolden people to be like, see, told you now I can like let my bigoted views shine.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (35:03)

Yeah.

Yeah, I don't have to be quiet anymore. ⁓ You know, don't have to, I don't have to be, don't have to, I can have my views because ultimately I just feel hard done by in life in general. And I'm not protected and these people are and I want some of that protection and why should they get that protection? And I don't get anything. ⁓ And you know, I had a really interesting conversation with ⁓ just a member of the public actually.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (35:28)

Yeah.

Mmm, mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (35:54)

sometimes I end up in these conversations. You have a dog, you get into funny conversations with other people. And they were like, I don't mind, you know, I think we ended up on skin. We landed there. And it was sort of like, I don't mind people having what they've got. And I was sort of like, but what if they, en masse, had more than you?

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (35:58)

Uh-huh. ⁓

Mm-hmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (36:24)

And he was like, no, no, no, they can have the same or less, but they can't have any more. And then he was like, oh my God. Like you saw the the power of his own words, like fell in his head and he was like, oh, oh, oh. And it was like, as long as they're the minority and they remain where they are, I can cope with it. But then he was like, I didn't even know, think that.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (36:29)

Wow.

Mmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (36:54)

⁓ Like, there is an example of ⁓ that subconscious, when that kind of legislation, these things are, you know, can be platformed off. Yeah, it's quite, I think a lot of people are afraid to think. I think they're afraid to think in case they think something that they...

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (37:01)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (37:23)

They think they shouldn't say, but don't understand the level of complexity underneath it, nor want to go out and find out about it. So they don't choose ignorance and therefore choose those views in ignorance. By choosing ignorance, they've chosen those views. ⁓

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (37:32)

Mm-hmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (37:42)

or you have those that just don't, they just don't want to know. ⁓ They don't want to, they kind of know where they sit ⁓ and they don't want to challenge the way that they think. ⁓ Because the sort of former feels like they're going to get in trouble if they say the wrong thing. Whereas as the latter just thinks it. And I think that does equate to power, I think you see.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (38:00)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, pullets.

Yeah, exactly. I was just gonna say like, you can see how if someone is experiencing a position of dominance, like, why would they? Why would they be like, hold on a second, this feels unfair, because probably it feels quite good. And, you know, if you feel like you have nothing to worry about, but it's, I guess that's where, yeah, that's where for me, it feels, I find it very hard to understand that people think it's all right for them to have a certain thing, but not anyone else. And

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (38:25)

Yeah.

Literally,

I wrote a song, one of the most recent songs that we recorded and put out. One of the lyrics I wrote is, how can the world be fair if it just revolves around you?

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (38:53)

Mmm. ⁓

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (38:54)

That's not fairness. That's not. I don't really like the word fairness. I prefer the word equity. But so many, so many people from that group reach the term fair. Yet what they experience is not fair. Like it isn't. And I agree with you. I'm just like, how can you not see it? Like I can see it even in a space around confidence. I can see.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (39:00)

Yeah.

Bye.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's like...

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (39:20)

when a person in a room is struggling to engage in the room, but they want to, and I'm not. And I can instantly go like, well, I've got the capability to bring them in so that they can have this experience as well.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (39:25)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, that's such a great skill to have and to be generous with that as well, like to bring people in rather than be like, huh, sucks for you. Yeah. ⁓

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (39:43)

Yeah, I think people

think that it's like if they have 10 sweets and somebody else has five sweets and we're trying to get equal, they perceive that in order to achieve equity that they're going to have to lose sweets for them to get sweets. And actually, no, ultimately what we're aiming for is everybody's got 10 sweets. And actually I personally can accept that I might have to lose some of my sweets for a short amount of time

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (39:58)

Mm-hmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (40:12)

for everybody to end up with 10 sweets That's an investment I'm willing to make.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (40:12)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah. And this is what like, patriarchy and capitalism and white supremacy thrive on, there being scarcity, you know, this constant implication, for example, with trans rights, or with you know, people becoming more vocal about neurodiversity. It's like, that it's taking away something and there is only a very limited amount of opportunity and blah, blah, blah for everyone. No, that's not true. It's just like, that that is, that's the conditions that help.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (40:39)

Yeah.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (40:48)

that kind of mentality to thrive. ⁓ So yeah, all about like, abundance and having all the things for everyone. ⁓ I feel like you've already shared in the best way, like some things that you think are common sense that other people would find like really quite bold. ⁓ So maybe we've answered that question already, but was there anything else that you had in mind that you wanted to share?

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (40:50)

Yeah.

Hey.

Yeah.

I have one that was the only

one I wrote down actually, you know. I think marginalised people can marginalise people.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (41:13)

Okay, okay.

Ooh, good one. Yeah.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (41:23)

I think we

get into this mindset then, like, well, if you're a person of colour, you don't experience racial bias, you're not ableist, you're not, like, you're immune. Like, you're one of the marginalised, therefore you cannot marginalise. The same, like, in the Autistic community, that Autistic people are also in this marginal... ⁓

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (41:49)

no.

H seems to have disappeared, so I will see if they return. Hopefully they do.

great what they were saying as well. Come back!

I can see there.

That was so good and then you went I was like no

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (42:15)

Sorry about that.

I know exactly where I was. Like we think that as Autistic people, because we're like, It can be perceived that Autistic people, well, they're marginalised, so they don't hold racist views, anti-Semitic views. It happens. And I think there's nothing more devastating for marginalised, multiply marginalised people that come into communities and...

experience, they think they're going to be safe in there, they think they're going to be held because we think that other marginalised groups will hold space for other marginalised groups, but we almost experience the same issues around capitalism and scarcity and it's like, well no, we need our voices to be heard, so you can't come in here with that because you're going to drown this out or you can't come in with neo pronouns because you're going to make this, you're to water this information down, you're going to make them

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (42:45)

Yeah.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (43:11)

think that we're exactly like they think we are. know, there's, there's the, Honestly the racism I've experienced in the black community, wild, the cognitive ableism that I have witnessed within the neurodivergent community, wild, the racism I've experienced in the queer community, wild. You know, the...

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (43:22)

Bye.

Mmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (43:37)

the marginalisation sometimes even within the trans community for those that don't identify within the binary, ⁓ like, and I think like, We've got to be better. We have got to be better because we like in my brain, how on earth can we ask the rest of those, you know, the bigoted views of the world to get it.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (43:45)

Exactly, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (44:02)

when we within communities that want people to better understand and better accept people are not practising the same stuff. Like we aren't immune and I think it just, I think it comes from going to sleep. People go, I'm, I'm this and they forget that they can also hold some of those same views that they have experienced. been in the same social circles. They've been around the same information. You know, I lived in a predominantly white area my entire life. So yes, they were.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (44:08)

Yeah.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (44:32)

there was marginalisation as a person of colour, there was also lot of Islamophobia. There still is a lot of Islamophobia. So what did I have to work really hard on? The ingrained Islamophobic subconscious bias that I had because of where I was socialised. I also have to know that I haven't got lot of experience with ⁓ socialising and interacting with people of the Jewish community.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (44:39)

Bye.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (45:01)

So what do I need to do? I need to keep my ears open. I need to ask relevant questions to people. If in the moment I have the space to do so, need to interact with those content creators and those people. And I just need to shut the fuck up and listen to somebody else.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (45:14)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (45:15)

And I don't see people in marginalised

communities doing that enough. They think they're immune and they're not.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (45:23)

Yeah, I think that's such a brilliant point. Like it's given me goosebumps because there's often this idea as well around like pulling up the ladder that a certain group climbs a certain distance and they like pull up the ladder so no one else can get up either. And, you know, we've seen that, for example, around gay rights that, you know, now there's a lot of transphobia in like gay community. And I'm talking about like cis gay men, for example, because it's like, well, we've made it. So like what you're talking about, there's no problem. ⁓

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (45:52)

Yeah, and trying to put that distance, like we don't, you go over there, because if you come over here, they're gonna think we're associated with you, and we don't wanna be associated, yeah, yeah, don't ruin, like, it reminds me of when ⁓ you go to secondary school, I don't know if you had any siblings, but I remember going to secondary school, my older sibling was there, and he was like, do not talk to me, don't, come anywhere near me. Because he had like, he'd created an image.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (45:53)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

You're going to ruin it for us. Yeah.

⁓ Okay.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (46:21)

an identity. And it was like, if you come near me and you're my like irritating little sibling, like that is going to, you know, don't come and tell people my deep dark secrets like string room for me. And it's almost a little bit like that. It's kind of like in some of those contexts, whichever group it is, it's like the irritating little sibling that's going to embarrass them and ruin their status and therefore their safety.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (46:23)

Okay.

Yeah.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (46:51)

Yeah, scarcity. Play it again.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (46:54)

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's wild that that would be controversial, but I totally agree that it is. yeah. Yeah.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (47:02)

⁓ so controversial. you know, part

like, ⁓ I've got some content that needs to go out really soon about The idea of black excellence, because black excellence is not black and Autistic. Black excellence is not black and trans. Black excellence in some spaces is not dual heritage, mixed race, biracial. But you don't want to come out and say that sometimes because if I'm

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (47:13)

Mm-hmm

Mm-hmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (47:31)

If we're throwing stones at each other, we give other people the permission to. It's seen as, it's not seen in good light. It's like we can't say anything because if we do, we're giving other people the ammunition to come after us because we can't even sort it out amongst ourselves. And I think that's why everyone stays quiet. That's why it's an opinion people don't like you coming forward with because it, the fragility of...

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (47:40)

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (47:59)

of how it feels to be within those communities anyway. It's like, don't highlight any problems because we're trying to seem legitimate. But I just, you know, I've called you.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (48:05)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And that whole idea of legitimacy as well is so problematic and again, like rooted in all of those things that we've mentioned. ⁓ Because, even like, just things like professionalism and you know, all of that, there's like a way that you're supposed to do these things. And those things are not accessible if you don't adhere to like, you know, the mainstream norms.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (48:19)

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's just not accessible. if I only wear shorts, if anyone has ever seen me in any spaces, like, you will know I only wear shorts. When I was a teacher, I couldn't wear shorts. So instantly, A, inaccessible, B, like, it's removed a huge part of my identity. It's not like, oh, it's just a little bit quirky. It's a sensory requirement.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (48:44)

Mm-hmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (49:00)

It's part of who I am, it's how people know me, it's how I feel the best version of myself. And then it's like, no, that doesn't go here. We don't do that here. You know, I worked in a profession where you have to hide a lot. You can't be gay, you absolutely couldn't be trans. You wouldn't be Like, what? Like, because both the perception that you need to make sure that you create for...

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (49:00)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (49:30)

the parents, the community that access the school, also those internally. know, most people that have entered teaching are there because of their position within society has allowed them to be there. And Autistic people, neurodivergent people, disabled people do not do well in that environment. Any marginalised and underrepresented group do not do well in that environment and end up having to make the choice between like dangerous levels of masking.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (49:43)

Yeah. Yeah.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (50:01)

or giving up something that they're really passionate about. And I don't believe, and the fundamental belief I have around that is that what the fuck are we teaching the kids?

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (50:05)

Yeah. Yeah.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (50:15)

What the fuck are we teaching the kids? Only probably in the last years, two years, two to three years or so, would I say it's been acceptable for teachers to discuss their own neurodivergence. Like, and even then it's tentative because if a parent then decides to weaponize that, you're in the position where could be accused of being inappropriate. And it's inappropriate to share that information. Still, 2025.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (50:34)

Yeah. Yeah.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (50:45)

What does that show? Like the only way you're successful is if you have absolutely zero individuality. It isn't something I'm buying into.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (50:47)

Yeah. Yeah.

Exactly.

Yeah. And if there is, if there is any, just have to be really good at hiding it. I'd really love to have another chat about this. Oh, go on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (50:59)

Yeah. Or you have to be so good. Yeah. sorry. You have to be so good

that it doesn't matter. Be weird. Be, be weird. Do what you want because you're so, you're so fucking good and valuable. We won't find it anywhere else. So we're to accept it. If you can just do a little bit, not too much. Yeah. Sorry. influenced you.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (51:07)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, no, I was just gonna say,

I so sort of school children's rights education is another area that I think is so fascinating around all of this stuff. And maybe we can have another conversation about it at some point, because yeah, there's so much overlap. And I think a lot of this, what we are trying to both of us in our work, like help people to deconstruct is like a huge amount of that damage is done like in school.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (51:35)

show.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (51:47)

and in those structures that like bring young people up to think these things and to not question.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (51:51)

Yeah,

and in that, our brains are so plastic, I can never say this word. They're so malleable at that stage and age and I think it was Nadia, Nadia, I can never say her last name, Nadia Whippam, Nadia Whippam MP. ⁓ If you don't, yeah, yeah. Very fortunate that I live in Nottingham, shush, they aren't my MP, but I wish they were, but they're a Nottingham based MP.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (52:00)

huh.

Okay, yeah, wisdom I think is, yeah.

great. Yeah, yeah.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (52:18)

posted like a wild statistic about like 90, in the 90 % of 16 to 17 year old young men, agreed with Andrew Tate.

against only like 1 % of girls that were surveyed.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (52:40)

Bye.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (52:40)

We want the

next generation to be better. And I think there's like a mid generation that are around now that are just like, they had that like when DEI was fashionable and people talked about it. And like, I remember having a conversation with my sister, people just don't come out. It's just not a thing. Like they don't, it's just not a thing. Like, I worry for this very malleable next gen that are coming through listening to all of this.

seeing Donald Trump's information, seeing that then fall out, the cold that is caught, you know, and then rolled into that and how that impacts not only on their ability to be a great citizen, a great ally, a great human, but to be themselves. Because even if you do not identify as a marginalised and underrepresented gender or group right now, this information...

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (53:28)

Yeah.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (53:35)

This movement is doing something to who you are and how you feel you can present and how you can be your authentic self. Even if on the surface of it, it doesn't affect you because the information that is coming through, the theme that is coming through is don't be yourself, don't be yourself, don't be yourself. That will damage you.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (53:42)

Uh-huh.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And that's not even taking into account like how... sorry. Go on.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (54:02)

And if you can't see that.

No,

sorry. Please go.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (54:07)

Oh, damn the delay. I was just going to say

that's also not even taking into account that whilst someone may not currently be marginalised, they easily could be in the future. For example, they may currently not be disabled, but there's no reason that they will not be disabled in the future. So yeah, all of this stuff is relevant to all of us.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (54:24)

Absolutely. I'm really fortunate

to be a part of an arts organization, an arts development organization for learning disabled and Autistic artists. And the learning disabled community, I would argue, I will probably die on this hill, are the most margin, one of the most, if not the most marginalised group within their own community. The understanding around

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (54:48)

Mm-hmm.

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (54:53)

what it is to be learning disabled is so poorly explained, so poorly understood, poorly communicated people don't know what it is, the terms are in to use very poorly, but the level of cognitive ableism that that community experiences that will be in the mouth of everybody, stupid, thick, idiot, retard, mongol, all of that language that people use as insults against other people.

They experience a level of cognitive ableism that is absolutely off the charts yet. Any point in any of our lives, any minute, we could have a cognitive impairment that is the same as them. We could have a stroke, we could be in a car accident, we could have a seizure, anything could happen to us. But like, as you say, people say, well, I'll never be that. That will never affect me. I don't need to participate, because I ain't that.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (55:23)

Mm-hmm.

you

Yeah, yeah, 100%. Yeah, wow, I feel like this has been a very bold conversation in the best way. Yeah, ⁓ I've loved it. Thank you so much. And I'm sorry I've kept you longer than we agreed, but it felt like there was just so much to say. So thank you for all your time. And I will obviously share links about where people can find you. And is there anything in particular that you would like to say? Anyone listening?

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (55:56)

Very bold. I've enjoyed being bold with you.

Peace.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (56:15)

to this being like, my God, I need more H, they're the best. Where do you want them to go?

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (56:19)

⁓

Just come and find me in anything that you, I'll give you my email address, I'll give you my Instagram, you can get in my DMs. You do, you get in touch with me, how best feels best for you. It would be disingenuous of me to say you must do this and you must do it like that. ⁓ Follow me, keep a lookout for some of the stuff that I'm doing. I've got some workshops and things coming up ⁓ in the next month. ⁓ But yeah, I'm here and please reach out because I'm... ⁓

I'm so invested in this because it's so, it's just so important. ⁓ And I, and it breaks my heart that people live a whole life and die having never been able to be themselves. And you get one go, one turn, one go on the roller coaster. And I want to be there to help people have the best fucking time on the roller coaster that they can have. Thank you so much for having me.

Gem Kennedy (they/them) (57:12)

Yeah, amazing.

Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure. Yeah, what more to say?

H Arlo-Harris (they/them) (57:17)

Alright. Nothing more to say.