Lola Phoenix

Not your tour guide through the museum of oppression - Series 1, Episode 11

In this episode of Queers & Co., I’m joined by Lola Phoenix, a queer, non-binary disabled American living in the UK. Lola writes and produces a weekly advice column and podcast called Non-Monogamy Help as well as writing on social justice topics from gender to disability to poverty.

We chat about so much juicy stuff, including how labels and identifiers can help us to feel less alone, whether polyamory is a marginalised identity, the importance of taking the time to educate people without jumping down their throats, non-monogamy and creating a podcast and column on it, learning when to step away from an argument, death positivity and so much more!

If you haven't already, be sure to join our Facebook community to connect with other like-minded queer folks and allies.

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Find out more about Gem Kennedy and Queers & Co.

Podcast Artwork by Gemma D’Souza

Resources

Find out more about Lola and their work here: Medium and About.Me

Non-Monogamy Help podcast and column

Follow on Lola on Twitter

Read Thirteen Mistakes People Make When Trying Polyamory

Sex Worker Advocacy and Resistance Movement (SWARM)

Email nonmonogamyhelp@gmail.com to submit a question to Lola on non-monogamy

Full Transcription

Gem: Hi Lola! How are you?

Lola: I'm pretty good. How are you?

Gem: Yeah, I'm good. Thank you. I'm really excited to have you here. Thanks for doing it.

Lola: Yeah, thank you for having me on.

Gem: So, it will be really great to start with—I think I always start with this actually. I make it sound like it's a new invention. It'll be great to start with just finding out a bit more about you and your various intersections.

Lola: Cool!  So yeah, my name is Lola. I am an American immigrant that relocated to the UK. And I'm going to be here for the foreseeable future (unless things change, and it gets a lot easier to immigrate somewhere else).

I identify as queer, autistic, and disabled in lots of other ways. I have a very rare and difficult disorder to deal with. I am also queer. And I grew up in a kind of—I would say it was mostly working class.  But there were kind of weird things that made it a little bit middle class. I had middle class grandparents. But my parents were definitely working class/poor. So, there was a lot of mix-up with that.

I think that definitely kind of informs my experience. I'm also a bit on the ace spectrum. And that has had a lot of impact in terms of how I look at things. And yeah, I think that kind of covers most of my intersections.

I am white, so I'm privileged in that way. And I think, unlike the vast majority of my family, I have been to university. So I have also that aspect which has given me a lot of privilege in a lot of ways.

So yeah, that's kind of my background.

Gem: Amazing! Thank you. And there's lots to explore there. And I just wanted to, first of all, for anyone listening who isn't familiar with ace or being asexual, I wonder whether you'd be happy just to maybe explain a bit about what that looks like to you.

Lola: Sure! So for me, I roughly identify as demisexual. Demisexual means—and this is really hard for people to wrap their heads around. It means that I don't tend to be attracted to somebody without some type of emotional bond to them.

And most people would say, “Well, that's how everyone is.” But there's a difference between being willing to have sex with someone and actually being attracted to them. A lot of people will be sexually attracted to people that they don't necessarily know, that they just see, but they aren't necessarily willing to jump in the bed right away with them. But for me, I just don't feel attracted to people right away. It takes a long time for me to be sexually attracted to them.

And just as an addendum, ace people—you know, people have sex without being sexually attracted to people all the time. So, you can still be ace and be interested in sex for other reasons that don't have to do with being sexually attracted to people.

I know it's complicated. And it's a bit of a confusing thing. For me, labels are helpful when they add something to my life. And when they help me understand myself a little bit better, when they helped me clarify my experiences. They're easy ways to explain to people and find other people who have my experiences. But I don't think labels should ever be a prescriptive list that people should have to meet. So they're descriptive, not prescriptive. They should be things that help people.

So there's some times when I will be like, “Oh, am I really demisexual?” because I try to pick apart whether or not I'm sexually or aesthetically or romantically attracted to somebody. And at the end of the day, it's just like this is a label that helps me say, “I noticed that I am different and how I feel attracted to people than the vast majority of people. And this helps me feel less alone.”

Gem: Yeah. Two things actually. So, within labels, I like what you say about them not being prescriptive. It's just a way to identify and also to find other people like you.

And within that, there's a spectrum, right? So it's not like using these labels means that you are absolutely this all the time, and it’s the same for everyone. It's just sort of an identifier that means that there's a scale within that particular idea that you might fall in or fall within. Does that make sense?

Lola: Yeah, definitely.

Gem: Yeah. And the other thing was about finding people, when you come across a label or a way to identify, and it really resonates with you… it's so powerful, isn't it, to realize that you're not alone anymore, and that there are other people that feel like that. Putting words to things can be really validating, I think.

Lola: Yeah, definitely. And especially kind of when you feel like you're so different from how everyone else is experiencing something…

And it's not to say that like their experience is invalid or that mine is more valid or anything like that. I think people at their core, even people who are like me, I'm very introverted, I'm not a big social person, but I don't think people—you know, I think we're social, we’re encouraged to be social. That's how we've survived for ages and ages, forming communities and being with one another. And so, I think in that aspect, it's hard to feel alone, and you don't want to feel alone.

And so, if a label can help you feel like, “Okay, I'm not the only one who feels this way,” then that's really, really important.

Gem: Yeah, I'm just thinking you mentioned some of the other parts of your identity. And I'm wondering what queer looks like to you. So within the queer label—and it can mean all kinds of different things for different people—how would you identify with being queer?

Lola: So, I think that queerness for me is more than just about sexuality or about gender. For me, I want that label in particular because it has a political meaning. And I think that that's really, really important.

My mom's a lesbian. And so, I grew up within the community and saw it from a different perspective. And I didn't actually come out until I was in—and coming out was kind of a rough kind of thing of what I did. But I didn't realize and kind of accept myself as not being straight, or at least not being typical in that regard, until my mid-twenties. And my mom said very biphobic things growing up. And I think that came from a place of frustration for people that she thought that could choose to be oppressed or not and she didn't understand.

But I think that, for me, queerness is about realizing that society has decided to privilege others and punish others and to choose not to assimilate into that. I do a talk occasionally about the history of the Stonewall Uprising and the history of that resistance within the US. And there is a long history of people who want to assimilate, people who want to be “normal,” people who want to be accepted by the mainstream and people who don't. And that's always been a huge tension in the community between people who just want to be “accepted.”

We're usually already accepted in a lot of other ways—because they're white, because they're middle class, because they fit in a lot of other boxes. And being gay is just the little thing that's hanging out that they want to hammer down, so that they can fit in. And for some people, fitting in is just not an option.

And I feel like for me, even if I were fully accepted being queer, and from a gender presentation or whatever is not a factor in what I find attractive in someone, or it doesn't matter to me, even if I were fully accepted in that, there's still lots of other ways that I'm not accepted. And there are also still a lot of other people who aren't accepted.

And for me, queerness is about “I don't want to assimilate.” And that's a big part of the identity.

I think there are a lot of gay people who aren't queer. And I think that I'm willing to expand the definition of queerness to consider things outside of sexuality and gender.

The thing that I am wary about is when people start trying to take it as a means to gain power. Particularly within the polyamory community and within the kink community, there are very white cisgender, heterosexual men who want to add and tack the letter on to LGBTQ as a way to get out of the things that they say and the things that they do that are oppressive. And that isn't okay.

So, when I started getting more into fat liberation and fat activism—and I'm kind of more on the small fat spectrum in that regard—when I started getting more into that, the idea of calling someone “straight sized,” I was like, “Oh, actually, that totally makes sense to me because being queer is about being on the margins. And fat bodies are on the margins.” That makes a lot of sense to me. And I'm fine with that.

But certain things, their acceptability, I think it's debatable. But if it comes down to someone taking that label and using it as a get-out-of-jail free card for the other stuff that they do, I can't get on board with that.

Gem: Yeah, that's super interesting because I know Virgie Tovar, for example, identifies or has talked about identifying as queer as being a fat person, that fatness is a queer identity. But yeah, that's so interesting. Just because I guess of my exposure to different communities, I've not come across many straight white men who would identify as queer or would want to use that identity. What was that like, seeing people trying to claim that?

Lola: It’s really frustrating. And to be fair, it's not just men. It is sometimes women who do identify as heterosexual. It's just these people arguing that polyamory or kink should be added to the LGBTQ letter.

I don't think that they push to identify as queer specifically because they don't understand that queer is a political identity. And they would probably be more in the camp of queer as a slur. But they do want to be part of it.

And they make a big deal of marching in the Pride Parade as if they wouldn't be allowed as a straight person to march in the Pride Parade. They make a big, big deal out of being part of that community. And then, when you call them on transphobia, when you call them on any of the things that they do, they're like, “Well, I'm marginalized because I'm polyamorous” or “I'm marginalized because I'm kinky.” And it's not really the same. It’s frustrating.

Gem: So, it makes me think of what we were talking about before we were recording, before we started recording, the idea that just because you are polyamorous, it doesn't necessarily mean that you are a member of an oppressed community. Whereas it sounds as though people who are taking part in their Pride marches and kind of really pushing the point potentially do feel like they're part of a marginalized community.

Lola: I think that there's a lot of variation. I mean, I'm not going to pretend like people welcome and accept the idea of polyamory easily. However, I think that… how do I say this? I think that we have to look at history. And part of what makes a marginalized identity is looking at the history of the way people have been treated and how they've been targeted and how systems have been built to disenfranchise them.

If you look at history, men have typically always been able to sleep with and have relationships with mostly whoever they wanted to without a lot of punishment—especially if they're wealthy, especially if they are in positions of power. Mistresses have been common. There are a lot of places where—I mean, I'm not saying polygamy is the same as polyamory. But there are a lot of places where it is perfectly acceptable for men to have multiple partners. That hasn't been a thing that they have been unable to do.

And if you look at the way that society has always kind of tried to control certain people, to me, I kind of compare it to being non-binary. I'm not trying to make it into an oppression Olympics or who's the most oppressed. I think that I face a lot of different things than people do. And I think that there's a very good argument for non-binary people being discriminated against when you talk about colonialism and you talk about how white Europeans coming and invading lands, basically defining non-binary people out of existence, wiping out anyone who—

I mean, you know, colonial-wise, there has been an erasure of those identities, of violence against those identities. But that is also a system that privileges me as a white person. So I can't sit here and say that me being a white non-binary person is the same in terms of oppression as a non-binary person of color or two-spirit person or anyone else. It's very complicated.

And I think that when it comes to having multiple partners, the people who the hammer is going to fall on are generally not the people who claim to be marginalized by it. So many people in communities—because I also give advice in a lot of Reddit communities and things like that—they're very worried that society is going to outcast them, that their children are going to be taken away.

They ask questions about CPS or child protective services or how does it work with children in schools when so many families that I grew up around had other adults living in the home because we didn't have the money for these nuclear two-parent families. So, we would have aunts and uncles and grandparents and other stuff picking us up.

Schools don't care as long as you give them a list of people to pick up, or if you have divorced families, you have multiple step parents. That’s not an obstacle if you’ve had those types of families.

And my experience at least with the CPS is that I've had family members who have really mistreated their children. But because there's no marks on them, the CPS hasn't done anything. Whereas in some places in America, the child protective services are purposely taking indigenous children from their homes and putting them into white homes because they make money off of it.

So, you're worried that the CPS is going to come in and take your children, and I just feel like who's the CPS going to actually target, who are the state system is going to actually target. If somebody is going to get in trouble for bigamy laws or any of those kind of laws that are sort of “yes, there are laws, but are they really enforced?”, who is the hammer going to fall on?

I feel like definitely there will be people who will be punished for being polyamorous. But the more privilege you have in general, I feel like the less likely it is that you're going to suffer the consequences.

And I feel like the hatred or any kind of stuff against polyamory tends to be less about having multiple romantic partners and tends to be more about slut-shaming and more about misogyny than it is about a purposeful category of polyamory being created by an oppressor, and then therefore being enacted in a state way. I'm not wording that very well. It’s not an institutional thing that is happening.

You know, people haven't outlawed multiple marriages because they hate polyamorous people. I took a huge part in marriage equality rallies and everything when I was in the States. As a teenager, that was a big part of the activism that I did. And I had people shout “Get your hands-off marriage in my face!” I know you know what it's like for people to consider you vile. And people compared my mother to a child molester for who she loved.

Again, this isn’t about oppression Olympics. But this is about a system. Marginalization is about a system that is created to target you and priviledge other people.

And just like I said, I don't feel like—you know, marriage isn't legal between more than one person, but I don't feel that that's because people hate polyamorous people. I feel like that is about capitalism and about misogyny and about controlling women and less about hating polyamorous people if that makes sense.

Gem: Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And you’re mentioning, going on to demos and stuff then, it sounds like your activism has taken lots of different forms and in different spheres. I just wondered if you'd be happy to talk about how that's evolved for you.

Lola: Yeah, so activism is… direct action type of activism is really hard for me now because, with my disorder, I don't produce cortisol, which is the stress hormone that your body makes when you're under physical stress and mental stress and things like that. It doesn't mean I don't get stressed. It means that if I were to be physically injured, then I need that medicine right away. And if I don't get it, I could very well die.

My condition is so rare that I don't feel confident that if I were at a situation where I was injured and I needed medical assistance, I don't really feel like I could trust the police to give that assistance if they arrested me, or allow an ambulance to come through if I needed it.

So, I am very wary to participate in that because I just don't feel like I'm that useful if I'm dead.

So, most of what I try to do now tends to be focusing on community work. If my friends have fundraisers, how can I help… even small things? If I noticed that a friend is going to a protest, how can I help monetarily support that? If a friend of mine is organizing a big bike ride protest, I'm lending my bike.

They aren’t big, showy things. And they aren’t carrying banners and doing all that kind of stuff. And I have a little bit of a mixed feelings about the activism that I did as a child—well, as a teenager—because I do feel like it was important for me at the time, but I felt like a lot of what I was doing was trying to convince people of the validity of queer people. And I don't know if people shouting that in my face and me standing there actually changed anything.

And obviously—well, less obviously—my sort of opinions about the state and the effectiveness of the state have changed since I was a teenager. But yeah, now I focus more on trying to give community aid, mutual aid, trying to support people who are around me, try to educate where I can.

I think that that's a really, really big thing that a lot of people on the left fail to do. I think that sometimes, understandably, our reaction to learning more about systems of oppression is to be frustrated and angry. And the biggest impact on my activism was working in a charity (and multiple charities) for people with a learning disability because I had to start pushing campaigns and talking about campaigns where I would literally find out that people with a learning disability die 10 to 20 years earlier than people who don't have it simply because the doctor won't take a little bit of extra time with them, simply because people don't explain things to them, simply because information is not given to them in an accessible format.

And so, I'm sitting here and I can't logically say people are dying because they're not given accessible information, and then think it's acceptable to tell somebody to just go google something.

And I'm not saying educate people on your own oppressions because I think that that's a lot. But I do think where I am privileged, it is part of my duty if I want to change things to do my best. If someone is willing to listen, and if someone is making an effort and showing good faith, it is really, really important for me to get a hold of my anger and frustration with the system and not take it out on that person and actually spend the time it takes to sit there and try to explain it.

I can make an effort and do my best. It doesn't mean they're going to listen.

There’s a really amazing book called The Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas Kuhn (I think is his name). And it talks about how scientific progress is not linear and that it's not about people just slowly accepting ideas. He said that the changes in science—and I think he talks about flat earth, and then people accepting the earth is round. The changes in science, he describes as a conversion experience, that people have to be converted and have to kind of come to this new awareness of it and that they’re not as kind of highbrow and educated and “Oh, we just accepted these theories, no problem, because it made more sense.”

And I think that it's the same way almost for understanding a system of oppression. People are educated and told their whole life to not accept this. It’s going to be hard for them. They’re going to be defensive. They’re going to not want to accept it. And they have to make that effort. It's not just you educating them, they have to also make the effort. But you have to make the effort too.

I think, sometimes, even amongst ourselves, it's wild how we will beat each other up for stuff that we have said before, how we will knock each other down. It’s almost as if we're enacting our own frustrations with ourselves and the things we used to believe on other people and releasing that frustration on each other. We're replicating carceral justice systems that aren't just by excluding each other, and being violent with one another, and mocking one another and humiliating one another.

I'm not saying there isn't a c-lining. I'm not saying there aren't people who don't want to listen to you. And I'm not saying go talk to someone who's the “political opposite” of you (because that is someone who usually wants you to die).

But what I am saying is that among people who respect you or among a common community, at least try to extend people the benefit of the doubt. Don't just assume and jump down their throats and act like they're stupid. So many of the stories that people with a learning disability told me about how they get harassed online, about how they get kicked out of communities, simply for not understanding things, I come back to the fact that I'm autistic and I think about how often, growing up, I didn't understand the social rule. I was excluded for that because no one would explain something to me…

That, I think is a big part of what I try to do as well. It's frustrating. It’s angry. When someone says something ignorant, it's really hard not to be angry about it. But I have to try and maintain. When it comes to trans issues or things that affect me personally, then it's obviously a little bit different. But if I'm trying to be a “ally” for whatever that word is worth, then I have to at least have the patience that people of color have had with me.

Gem: Yeah, and just taking that time… and I guess, it's a real balance, isn't it, to know who to give your energy to. Obviously, as you say, talking to someone who's your complete political opposite, that's going to be a real challenge… probably don't go there. But if it's someone who's maybe made a comment, for example—no, I won't use an example because I don't want to… yeah…

So, I'm just thinking like if someone says a comment that is oppressive to a particular group, I guess it's in that moment analyzing, “Do I have the energy right now?” And then, you come back to that person, whether it's with some resources, as in “Oh, this podcast is really good” or “This person talks about this. You might want to go and talk to them” or do I have more energy to kind of have a conversation with them? And do I have like a safe place to get out of the conversation if I find that it’s kind of going on and escalating or becoming very personal.

There’s so much nuance, isn't there, in how to have those conversations. I think being part of a marginalized identity or multiple marginalized identities, quite often, it’s really easy to just feel a lot of rage because you just spend…

I have a lot of privilege. And I recognize that there are people who are more marginalized than I am and I’d imagine feel even more rage or having to explain constantly their varying intersections. But I guess it's that idea of how do you maintain not raging at people? And if you really don't feel in a place to have that conversation, could you maybe like bookmark it that you might come back to it if you do have energy to talk to them or when to walk away.

It's a really hard, hard balance. And I just think I really resonated with what you said about not kind of taking out the rage that you've experienced from the system or from society on this one person that has a question or has said something a bit ignorant.

Lola: Yeah! And I know that that's hard. It is a very delicate balance. And you might not always be up for it. And that's fine.

And I want to reiterate… especially in areas where you are privileged, it's no longer acceptable for me to pop off to white people for saying ignorant things. I have to at least attempt, especially if we're in a shared space where I feel like that they will be willing to listen to me. They’re more willing to listen to me than people of color. I have to be willing to at least try and explain it once.

Now, if they continue to be jerks, then fine. That's fine. But where I am privileged, Thomas Sankara says we must never be tired of explaining. I can't remember the exact quote. We must never be tired of explaining because when people understand this, they can’t help but to join us.

I know what I know. Everybody has to start somewhere. And I know only what I know because people have had the patience to explain it to me or because people have had the patience to sit down and say, “Here's an article.”

And I think people who were raged at me, I'm not saying that that turned me completely off of a topic. And I don't think that rage is always unuseful or that you always have to be nice (because I do think sometimes when you're angry, people will pay attention). But it's just about figuring out what's the best use of your time.

And also about, as well, keeping in mind that, even if you're only talking to one person, and they aren't listening, there are other people who are. And I have gotten messages before from people where I've talked to a person who clearly wasn't listening to me. And I've had either messages from people who didn't experience that marginalization who were like, “Actually, I learned something from this,” or people who did experience that marginalization and were like, “I'm glad someone said something.”

And one of my favorite quotes—it’s not necessarily my favorite movie, but one of my favorite quotes in any movie is in A Bug's Life when Hopper, the grasshopper, is talking about—oh, he kind of takes out one acorn I think it is and throws it at the other grasshopper and says, “Did that hurt?” The other guy says no. And then, he throws another one. And then, they keep going, “No, no, no…” And then, he pulls the thing out and all of the acorns fall. And then, he says: “When one of them stands up, they might all stand up.”

And I think that that is the thing. If you are willing to say something at some point, then you never know what kind of effect that might have. So you got to try.

I'm not saying always be nice to people. I'm not saying be the museum tour guide through the Museum of Oppression for somebody. But especially in communities that aren't political—

Like I do some volunteering and have done some volunteering at a homeless shelter washing dishes. And I've had really good productive conversations with somebody who just define themselves as a centrist. And I said to them like, “Look, all of these things now that you consider the center were once radical. All of these things, like women having the right to vote, gay people getting married… all of these things that you now consider common sense were once considered radical ideas. So, maybe think about that in terms of what's considered radical now.” And he really was like, “Oh, I never thought about it that way.”

Having that one conversation, that's just one person. But I had no idea what that could lead to. However, the other guy who was there tried to get me to listen to a Jordan Peterson lecture. And I had almost an argument with him about how he was talking about how have I ever really listened to Tommy Robinson. I didn't know what Tommy Robinson said. So I couldn't have an argument against him.

So yeah, there's some people, you can have a conversation with; and some people, you can't. But where someone has a mutual respect in other communities, take a gamble sometimes. But obviously, always look after yourself.

Gem: Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like I could talk about this with you for so much longer because it's such an interesting subject. And I also really want to talk about other things in your life.

So yeah, I guess thinking about that, your activism has obviously taken lots of different routes. But one particularly public—or two actually. So one stream is the writing. You’re really, it seems to me, a really prolific writer online. And the other is the podcast. We can talk about both hopefully. But I'm wondering which you might like to start with.

Lola: So yeah, most of what I write online—I'm a writer in general. I do write fiction as well, but I'm trying to go the agent route with that. And so I don't have necessarily a lot of fiction available online. But what I write regularly is a weekly advice column and a podcast—the columns are different to the ones in the podcast—called Non-Monogamy Help. And for that, that I think sometimes is a bit activism.

Like whenever I talk in my column or my podcasts about issues, I always try to make sure it's informed with marginalization. I try to take an approach that—you know, depending on how they write to me and what they tell me about themselves, I try to be cognizant of those issues.

And I also try to be understanding of the fact that most of the resources out there written for polyamorous people or people interested in non-monogamy are written by—the vast majority of written by white people, the vast majority are written by middle class people, the vast majority are also written by neurotypical people or people who don't have mental health issues. And I've actually found that reading stuff from those people was not helpful and actually made it harder for me rather than helped me.

So, when I talk about stuff, I always try to talk about it like I'm not an expert, I'm not a guru. I'm not a person that has got everything figured out because I feel like that is the problem. Whenever you read stuff, or even if you go in polyamory communities, I think because everyone's so focused on the idea within the wider society that open relationships don't work, people are very focused on doing good PR and trying to be like, “Oh yes, I had jealousy. But I don't have it now, and everything's fine.”

And I try to always say, “I'm struggling with this.” And when I talk to people, I say, “This is what I struggled with and what I still struggle with.” I struggle with stuff all the time.

The reason that I do the podcast and the column is because I've noticed that people have asked me specifically for help or said that it was helpful. And when I have written general articles about polyamory, like when I wrote 13 Things I Wish I'd Learned Before Trying Non-Monogamy, people have said, “No one's talking about this. And this is really, really helpful.” So that's why I'm doing it.

I don't know if I'm fighting necessarily for anything within polyamory because, again, I'm not an assimilationist. I don't have any desire. I'm not interested in convincing everyday people about the validity of polyamory. I'm not interested in recruiting. I'm not interested in trying to make it “mainstream.” But I am interested in trying to help people understand themselves a little bit and also take away some of the stigma around having feelings.

And also, just represent like, “Look, this is a perspective from someone who has anxiety, who has a lot of mental health struggles, who has a disability that you may not find somewhere else. I'm still white, so I don't have that perspective.” But I do want to kind of represent at least where I'm coming from in a way that might be helpful for a lot of people.

Gem: Yeah. And something I think is important to mention, I asked in the podcast group yesterday whether anyone had anything that they'd like me to talk about with you today. And there were so many questions. And a lot of them were about the actual, for want of a better word, I guess nuts and bolts of non-monogamy—how to and what does it look like and stuff.

And whilst it would be super interesting to talk about those things, I wanted to really signpost people to come and listen to your podcast. And actually, there's plenty of resources there where people can really get into the different areas and find out maybe all of the answers to their questions.

And also, you said that you're writing this article which will be out actually by the time the podcast comes out. So maybe you can just tell us a little bit about that so people know where to go.

Lola: Oh, cool! Yeah… so I don't technically have anything for someone who is like, “I want to try polyamory or non-monogamy, but I'm not sure.” The 13 Things I Wish I’d Learned Before Trying Non-Monogamy article is kind of more for people who may have already made those mistakes.

So, what I'm trying to put together… in addition to kind of doing my column and my podcast, I do a lot of commenting on polyamorous subreddits and things like that where I noticed that I'm typing the same things over and over again. I noticed that I'm giving the same advice over and over again. So, what I'm trying to put together is a list of—I'm going to call it the 13 Mistakes People Make When Trying Polyamory because there are a lot of common things people do when they first try, like making rules to stop emotions saying, “I'll only ever love you. I won't love anyone else.” That’s a big thing.

A lot of people don't realize that when you make a monogamous relationship into a polyamorous relationship, they sort of think it's like one-upping their relationship instead of changing the very structure of it. And I think that they don't think about—sometimes, they try it just because their partner wants to do it. And they don't have a personal vested interest in it. And I think that always leads to a lot of problems.

People read a lot of rose-tinted things because, like I said, polyamorous people—you know, people know about open relationships, but they think they don't work. And that's always the thing, like how do you make it work, how do you make it work. And working is like, “Okay, is your relationship lasting until someone who's in it dies?” It’s very structured around this has to be a long-term thing in order for it to work.

And so, a lot of polyamorous people are pushed to sell it all the time. And there's a lot of rose-tinted stuff, almost borderline culty stuff. I've sometimes been tempted to make like an article of like “is this a cult or is this a polyamorous article?” because people will just be very rose-tinted like, “Oh, it opens you up to so much love.”

Yes, I compare it a little bit to parenting. Parenting can be really great. But there are a lot of really terrible things about it as well. And I think that people are almost a little bit used to talking about the downsides of parenting. I still think there's a big taboo in talking about regretting having your children. But people don't talk about the downsides of polyamory. And I think that people don't expect that. So, when they open up their relationship, they think it's just going to be opening to all these lovely things and everything's going to be great. And then, the emotions sort of smack them across the face, and they're not prepared for it. And so that's another thing.

So, there's 13 mistakes that I cover. There are a couple of things like, “What if dating exes or dating friends?” which is a thing that people struggle with sometimes. I think I've covered starting polyamory from cheating.

A lot of times, people that are interested in polyamory, most of the time, when people are interested in it, they are already in a couple. So that creates a lot of issues. And generally speaking, they might be mildly interested in it and not really talk to their partner about it.

And then, a situation happens where they can have another partner or they can have another friend with benefits or something happens, and then now they're pushing it to their partner. And it seems a little opportunistic.

So, it's kind of addressing that point of opportunism like “What do you do if you feel ultra pressured by your partner because, all of a sudden, this window is open for them, and they want to jump through it.”

So yeah, there are a couple of common things. I think that, for me, it's always just about helping people understand that it is a big life decision. It is a big change.

Because my mom is gay, and because I grew up hearing people tell me that they didn't agree with my mother's lifestyle, the word “lifestyle” has been permanently ruined for me. So, I don't like to call it a lifestyle. But it is a completely way different way of doing something. Opening your relationship or being non-monogamous or being polyamorous isn't like just adding something on. It is changing the way that you do things.

And so, having people come to an understanding of what are the bare bones, what do they need to think about before they give it a try, I keep having to explain it over and over again. So I'm just going to put it in an article so that I can just send people there instead of having to explain it over and over again.

Gem: That sounds like a good idea. And I guess from your perspective, there's a difference between talking about like the theory of things and how we might overcome different things or different experiences, but I'm just wondering what the experience of being non-monogamous has been like for you.

Lola: Well, I did a podcast actually with Vice about my first experience, like when I first “tried it,” and I was basically used by a guy to cheat on somebody with—which wasn't great. And it's really funny because that was a good example of why the advice that I read and all of the resources that I read were useless.

For example, I found out that he was with this person. And then, I wanted to go talk to them because I wanted to meet my—your partner’s partner is called your metamour. So, I wanted to meet them and everything. He was like, “No, no, no, no, no.” And I was like, “Why?” And he's like, “I just don't feel comfortable.”

And now, I would be like, “Well, I don't care. I'm going to talk to this person. Why are you hiding this person?” Whereas then I was like, “Well, I don't want to be jealous. And I don't want to be a controlling partner. So I'll respect his boundaries.” And it turns out that the other person had no idea I existed. So, that hasn't been great.

I think, for me, the biggest thing that I get out of it, the thing that I always tell people is you personally as an individual have to get something out of it. And it can't be that you get to keep your relationship because your relationship has completely changed now. So you're not going to be able to have that be a reason. So you personally have to get something out of it. And that is kind of like your anchor that holds you through some of the more difficult moments.

And for me, the thing I get out of it is the fact that I’m on the ace spectrum, I'm very introverted. And unlike people who you'll see who’s just like, “I have so much love to give,” I don't like people. And if I meet somebody that I like, and they liked me back, the joke I say is like, “In 18 years precisely, when the planets align ever so nicely, and I should find somebody that I like, I would like the opportunity and the freedom to pursue that.” That's what I want.

Initially, when I started, I really wanted kids. I wanted this big—oh, it’s called kitchen table style polyamory. The name makes me cringe so badly because you clearly grew up around a very different kitchen table to me if you wanted your relationships to be like the kitchen table you grew up around. But it's the idea of everyone living together. Everyone getting along and this big—again, almost culty. It's a bit culty.

So, I have changed from wanting that kind of kitchen table style because I don't really want children now. That's changed. Well, I don't want them at all now. And I have had a lot of bad experiences with metamours. And I have also realized that it's just kind of like work. I don't mind having friends from work, but I don't like being forced to be friends with people that I work with. If I'm forced to be around those people, and I can't cut them out if they try something, I feel really uncomfortable. It feels too much pressure on me.

So, I don't mind meeting and talking with my metamours and my partner’s partners. And I don't mind being friendly with them. But in situations where I've tried to force myself to be friends with them, it's made me so uncomfortable.

So now, I like spending time alone. I'm cool with being alone. And I'm more open to kind of like how my life may look like in the future. That’s fine. But what I get out of it now is definitely like I have the freedom to do what I want. I have the ability to kind of decide how I want to live things and how I want my life to look like. It doesn't have to follow the script of how other people's lives look like.

And just in general, I personally would find it a little bit—I don't know, maybe I'm a little bit too autonomous.  But I would find it annoying for someone else to tell me like, “You're not allowed to date someone else.” I don't know. Personally, I'd be like, “Don't tell me what to do.” So yeah…

Gem: Yeah… and that makes me think hearing you say about and recognizing that you like autonomy and you want to be able to take time to be on your own and not have to kind of force yourself to be friends with certain people, that makes me think of how you implement self-care.

So, not only do you have a lot of activism stuff going on—having the conversations, you’re doing work in different spheres—and then I guess for want of a better word, the possible challenges of non-monogamy where you have different interactions to negotiate and stuff, how do you look after yourself amongst all of that?

Lola: So, the biggest thing that's helped me in not only polyamory, but in my anxiety in general, has been realizing that I have anxiety, it's going to happen… and it's not my fault that it happens.

And I think that if you have been through a lot of traumatic situations, or you have been through things where it's caused you anxiety, your brain kind of goes into a survival mode where it says, “Alright! We have to control this because we don't want it to happen again.”

And in the short term, it feels empowering because you don't feel so helpless. You don't feel like, “Okay, I just have to sit here and deal with the trauma happening to me because there's nothing else I can do about it.” But actually, in the long term, it's really disempowering because you can't accept the theory that you can prevent something bad from happening to you without also accepting that it's your fault if bad things do happen to you. And that puts so much burden on your shoulders to prevent bad things from happening.

And it's really hard to get out of the mindset of like—and a lot of people do this in polyamory and in life in general—“How do I prevent this from happening? How do I treat my partner in a way where they won't leave me?”

Being the perfect partner, it's less about other people and more about me being the best. And I have to be the best partner because then my partner will never leave me. And I've had to go, “Okay, if my partner falls in love with someone else and decides to not be with me anymore, outside of not being an asshole to them, there isn't really a lot I can do to change that. I can't force someone to fall in love with me. I can't force someone to stay in love with me. I can't force anybody to do anything.”

And I think that, overall, has really helped my anxiety because understanding that, okay, I have anxiety, having it doesn't mean that I failed in any way. Having it doesn't mean that I've not been able to magically prevent it. It's just something that happens. I don't have control over that.

And oddly enough, figuring out and realizing and accepting that I don't have control over things has really, really helped.

I think another thing that's also really helped with self-care, or two things: one is learning when to walk away from an argument, and when to not participate in an argument that's just utterly a waste of my time. That has been really, really important. I'm generally quite an argumentative person. I find it really hard not to just get like, “No!” I have gotten in back and forth arguments where, literally, by the end, we're just going, “K… k… k… k…” at each other. It's ridiculous!

I used to have an extension for Live Journal that automatically minimize all the comments because I would get into so many arguments. I would try to open the comment on Live Journal down this whole long tree, and it would freeze my browser. I have a really bad history with that.

So, learning when to step away and when to look at a massive text of paragraph responding to me about something and going, “Nah, I'm not going to participate in this.”

And this whole thing where people are like, “Oh, blocking them means that they've won.” So what?! Take your block trophy then. I don't care.” I haven't lost anything by not engaging. So that's a big thing.

And then, I also think there's another kind of—it’s not really activism that I'm involved in, but it's a concept that I little bit support. It’s a concept of what's called death positivity which is about breaking down the taboos that we have around death and society, breaking down our misconceptions about death, and also learning to reckon with death as a thing that will happen to us all.

And because I've spent so much of my life and have spent so much of my life fighting for equality, fighting for justice and liberation and all this stuff, it's almost like death is the thing that we—until someone horrible like Elon Musk figures out how to transfer his soul to the cloud or something, death is something that we all have in common. And so reckoning with it, thinking on it, and preparing and making sure that I have a will, making sure that my loved ones know what I want to happen with my body, not being afraid to look at those options, that has been really helpful for me actually because it makes me cherish the time that I have because I know it's going to end at some point.

I have like literally a thing on my phone that reminds me that I'm going to die like every three hours I think. And kind of keeping that present in my mind makes me realize how to devote my time better. And that helps a lot.

So, those things have been really, really helpful.

Gem: That's an amazing list. Thank you so much for sharing. I think people will be taking notes.

Lola: No worries, no worries.

Gem: And yeah, just about the alarm, I'm really intrigued. What does that do for you when it flashes up every three hours? Do you kind of find yourself desensitized to it? Or does every time, it reminds you, “Okay, how am I using my time? Do I want to be doing this?”

Lola: So, it's an app called WeCroak. It doesn't buzz. I don't have any buzzing on my phone because that kind of stresses me out. But it just says, “Just a reminder… you’re going to die.” And if you click it, there are some quotes about death. If you open the app, it just gives you a quote about death. Sometimes, the quotes are interesting; sometimes, they're a little bit random.

I don't know that I'd become desensitized to it. I think there are logistical things that are complicated in terms of organizing your own death. And it is getting harder. Like in the UK, I think the cost of death is actually rising. But I think it is something that—I don't know, maybe I'm attracted or interested in the taboo and the things we don't talk about. But it does make me really think about what I'm doing and think about am I using the time that I have…

Especially if you're an introvert, and you're kind of hermetic, I don’t like parties (parties are really loud), most events are really inaccessible for me… so I do sometimes worry that I'm not living my life to the fullest because I'm not like out of my head drunk every weekend and doing this, that and the other. But I think it's about it makes me cherish the time that I have with people that I care about and makes me think, “Am I reaching out to friends? Am I talking to them?” and things like that. And I think that's been really, really helpful.

And actually, I have had some experience with suicidal thoughts in the past. And I was worried that embracing this would make me kind of go back to that. But actually, it's done the exact opposite for me in that, if I think about how much my death may impact the people that I care about, and I think about all the logistical things and the financial things, that actually makes me more appreciate my life and be more interested in trying to live it on a day-to-day basis—

—which is hard! In this panic, people are joking about the world ending and all sorts of thing, it’s hard to kind of find that. So I think that's just really helped me. It just brings me back to like, “What are the things I enjoy out of life? And how can I focus on that rather than focusing on everything that’s tragic?”

Gem: Yeah! Yeah, I can see how that would be really powerful.

I think with all that in mind, it'll be really cool to hear what is next for you. It sounds to me that you're working towards getting some fiction published. And what else?

Lola: I mean it would be awesome if I could make writing a full-time gig. That would be really, really great. Right now, I work within the digital sphere. I've worked in charity for the last eight or nine years. I'm hoping to move to a for-profit which may sound negative, but actually, I think I'm feeling a little bit disillusioned with the idea that me being in a charity is innately improving the world because I do feel like the activism that I do—whether or not it's called activism, just the day-to-day stuff that I do to try and help people in my community just feels a lot more empowering than any of the work that I've ever done in a charity.

So, I think what's next for me is I always want to try and stay aware of people in my community who need help and boost where I can. I would really, really like to have a more regular volunteering place to physically go to. That’s kind of hard sometimes, especially people who are in small organizations that actually need the help. They don't always communicate very well about like, “Oh, can I come in today? Oh, no one's answering the phone.” So that's kind of hard.

So, I would like to specifically have helping people who are homeless and who don't have a home. It’s a big part of a focus for me because there are so many homeless queer people as well and because I feel like that's a basic thing. People not having a home, there's so many problems that stem from that. I'm not saying that other issues aren't important, but that's something I really care about. So, finding something to do on the regular would be really, really good.

I think also I would like to keep the podcast and column going and maybe hopefully, if I got on Patreon supporters, then that could be my full-time job. That would still be stressful because I've been self-employed before and that was stressful—just from the filing taxes sort of thing and also having dyscalculia and mixing my numbers… so that’s not great.

But just having writing being my full-time job would be a great thing. And yeah, I think that's kind of where I would like to be headed in the future.

I think at one point, I might consider writing a book about non-monogamy and seeing where that goes. The thing that I worry about is that I've written a lot of things. And I wrote about more than just non-monogamy. My non-monogamy stuff seems to do better which is kind of why I've focused more of my efforts on that rather than writing about white privilege or other sort of stuff. That doesn't tend to do as well.

But I guess there is a kind of worry in the back of my head of like, “What if my non-fiction stuff is way better than any of my fiction stuff?” I mean, I guess that's not the end of the world. But I don't know, I'm still a little bit hesitant about writing a book because so many of the books out there are by white people, and I know that I do offer a little bit of a different perspective by being disabled and being queer and that kind of a thing, but I don't know…

I guess it's still kind of a thing I'm tossing over my head like, “Should I…? How do I write this? Is it going to be helpful?”

Sometimes, I get messages from people that thank me for writing the way that I do. And that's really encouraging. I do think people are getting things out of the things that I write. But I always kind of check my ambitions a little bit with regards to that.

But yeah, that's kind of where I'm at.

Gem: Cool! And then, as you know, whenever I have a guest on, I ask them to share something that they're really enjoying at the moment. And I just wondered if there's anything you'd like to share.

Lola: So, I'm going to suggest something. And if this isn't what you had in mind, then that's absolutely okay. You can cut it out, and I can mention something else.

Gem: No, I'm sure it's great.

Lola: In my personal experience of being queer—and this is less of a thing that I'm enjoying. But in my personal expense of being queer, I found a bit of a catch 22 with myself in that I would say to myself, “Well, you're not really queer because you haven't had any relationships with women.” And even though, obviously, I’ve never put that kind of a restriction on myself or anything else, I would constantly criticize myself with that.

And when I actually found women that I was into, it would prevent me from talking to them or prevent me from engaging with them because there's also this kind of cultural myth within the queer community of the straight woman who ruins the lesbian’s experience and breaks the lesbian’s heart by leading her on. And that really, really affected me and really, really made me feel like I was sort of stuck, like there wasn't anything I could do.

I just so happened to be supportive—not like heavily involved, but supportive of SWARM which is a really awesome organization, the SWARM Collective. It's about fighting for sex worker rights and decriminalization in the UK. I knew someone through that who was a sex worker. And I had quite a couple of other friends who were queer sex workers. And I think that, if you are struggling with this concept, you should consider talking to queer sex workers and hiring a queer sex worker because I hired that person and it made the situation a hell of a lot less pressure for me because they were a professional.

I could say, “I'm uncomfortable with this,” and they wouldn't be personally offended. I felt really free to be able to try different things and not be okay with it without hurting somebody. And I do really think that it was really, really helpful for me.

And if I hadn't had that experience, I think I would kind of still be stuck in amber a bit and still be like, “Oh, I can't! I'm not really gay or not really queer enough unless I have this experience.” And that just really, really helped me.

There are a lot of people that support sex work, but they don't necessarily consider the possibility of being a client. And it is kind of difficult sometimes. The people who tend to be clients have a lot more money than most queer people do. And so, that's the thing.

But there are queer sex workers out there who understand and might have adjustable rates for other queer people. And they will be really, really supportive and really, really understanding of your boundaries.

I also have been through sexual abuse. So there are a lot of kind of triggers and traumas and things that I have. And the sex worker that I hired was just so understanding of everything. And it was just a very non-pressurized environment where I felt like I could have some experiences and basically figure it out or prove to myself that I'm really queer in a safe way.

And I think that is something that people should consider if you're stuck in that place. I think that if you want to hire a sex worker, you should at least try your best to understand the issues that sex workers face where you are locally and at least try to give a shit. SWARM has a lot of resources about that.

But yeah, if you're stuck in that, that’s been one of the most useful things that's really, really helped me. And there are queer sex workers out there. There are people who can be supportive of you in that situation and can really, really help you out. I don't regret it. I think it was an awesome decision. It's made me feel…

Since then, I have chatted people up who are girls and non-binary people and other queers. I felt a lot freer to just go, “Okay. I know that I don't have to prove anything to anyone.” And maybe I could have done some internal work and been more okay with it. But it was just such a great experience. And so, I do really, really recommend that, especially to anyone who's feeling stuck in that situation and wants to have an experience, but it's just really, really afraid of this kind of secret straight woman…

Even though I'm non-binary, I still kind of fear being the straight woman that ruins and breaks a lesbian’s heart. I think that can be really helpful.

Gem: Yeah, I think that's an excellent recommendation, probably the best one we've had so far. So thank you very much for sharing.

Lola: Thank you!

Gem: Yeah, that's really cool. Thank you so much for doing it. I feel like so much has come up that, in itself, could be an episode of a podcast. And it's been really great chatting to you. And I'm sure everyone listening to this will feel the same. So thanks for taking the time to do it.

Lola: Thank you, I really appreciate being on!

Gem: So, if anyone wants to follow your work, they should definitely come and check out your podcast. And I'll link to that in the show notes; and also, with the article that you talked about, the 13 most common mistakes that you see people making with non-monogamy.

And where else should people find you?

Lola: Yeah, I think NonMonogamyHelp.com should work to get to it, but you could also search for it. The article that I talked about, I'll post on that as well. I should be able to share it on my publication.

I'm generally on Twitter, @TheirNameisLola. I'm having to disengage Twitter a little bit because the pandemic talk right now is really stressing me out.

And I do have—as a fair warning, so I can operate Twitter as a trans person in the UK, I have like quite an extensive block list. And sometimes, I will be blocking people that I don't mean to because I'll just go to really horrible anti-trans accounts and just block everyone who's following them. And sometimes, trans people follow them to keep an eye on them and what-not.

So, if I blocked you, no offense. I just really locked down my account because I don't want to be dealing with some of the things that people do. And I sometimes do change my name for safety reasons that I don't want to get into.

But generally, you can find me on there. There's also an email nonmonogamyhelp@gmail.com which people can send questions to if they want. So yeah, that's kind of like mostly where they can find my stuff generally speaking.

Gem: Amazing! Thank you so much, Lola.

Lola: Thank you!